Since 2020 when everyone was sent home, there’s been one change after another in how we live and work, right up to our current “new normal” of remote or hybrid work. While it’s too soon to tell if this is a permanent change, given the overwhelming number of working parents, it begs the question: Does the modern workplace work for parents? Reshma, Tim and guest Blessing Adesiyan, founder of Mother Honestly (now MH WorkLife), dig into new research from MH and Care.com that takes a hard look at where things stand.
What are the pros and cons to having more flexibility and more control of your schedule? How has this enhanced your family, your career, or both? What about the gender gap? And while you may be flourishing, is your employer? Does the modern workplace work for them too?
Three years of turmoil and change…are we finally on solid footing? Is everybody winning? Tune in and find out, and hear Reshma and Tim’s thoughts on the conversations they’ve had throughout Season 1 of Why Care?.
Reshma Saujani:
All right. Hey, welcome back to Why Care? I’m Reshma Saujani, and I’m here with Tim Allen, we have another great episode with a special guest, who’s a friend of both of us- Blessing Adesiyan, the founder of Mother Honestly. We’re going to be talking to Blessing about some eye-opening research Mother Honestly did with care.com and the modern workplace and working caregivers. And then Tim and I are going to share what we thought were some of our most compelling things that came up through this series and thoughts that I know, I’m still continuing to think about and talk about, about what we need to do to fix this mess once and for all. But before we get started, Tim, let’s catch up. How was parenting this week?
Tim Allen:
It goes in and out. I would say it’s the struggle of parenthood. So I’m obsessed and focused on have you seen this data regarding the fourth and eighth-grade test scores from the COVID math…
Reshma Saujani:
The maths?
Tim Allen:
Yes, it’s crazy, right?
Those of you who you aren’t familiar with it, this basically shows how there’s just such a gap and what’s happened with children in terms of COVID education and how they’re faring holistically, regardless of State, just so poorly on their math assessment skills in fourth and eighth grade. And, part of the reason I’m obsessing about it is I think we’ve talked about this before, Reshma, you and I’ve talked about it personally, I don’t know if we’ve talked about on the podcast, but my son has dysgraphia, and dyslexia, so I’m so fortunate to have the resources I have. But even inside of those resources, it is such a struggle in the daily life to find the right support, like who you call, get the right testing set up with the school. And so they started kindergarten during COVID like my kids did.
So basically, their first year was just at home struggling us all figuring it out, as we’ve all talked about in previous episodes. And what I’ve really noticed was that really compounded the issues for him in regards to some of his even reading. Just this week, and he’s now by the way in the second grade. So we’ve been for two years trying to figure out which schools, what to do. So just this week, he got a tutor in terms of the specialists. And it wasn’t the lack of– look, again, very fortunate we here at care.com there’s tutors on the platform. It’s more knowing what to do and doing it in a way that’s going to complement his learning if that makes sense.
Reshma Saujani:
And what is similar to me, my son Sean’s in second grade two, what math level is he supposed to be at? What is he supposed to be reading? How do I know if he is behind or ahead especially when we’re working? It’s really hard.
Tim Allen:
So this week, we’ve been celebrating that, having that happen.
Reshma Saujani:
That’s awesome. Congratulations. So that feels good when you’re like, okay, we have someone who can support us. It’s kind of like what Betsy was saying, it’s like we’re not supposed to be taking care of our kids, because there’s specialists and experts who know how to be teaching second graders, it’s not us. It’s not three of us on this call.
Tim Allen:
Yeah, by the way, feeling constantly, like I’m failing for two years, feels like I’ve been failing him. We’ve been reading together, working together doing a bunch stuff, but I feel as a parent, and I think I don’t want to say I represent all parents, but I think I speak for a lot of parents, when I say you want to do what’s right for your kid, you want to do everything you can to help your child. And so for two years, I have constantly felt like I am failing my son, I am failing here, right? Because he’s just struggling, he was just struggling and keeping up, and then knowing that COVID has compounded that it’s a little bit like I look at it and go, Oh, this, like not only was living to the pandemic, trying to get everything organized the pandemic, there is such an aftermath of the pandemic to our children.
Reshma Saujani:
That we haven’t even started to feel back.
Tim Allen:
No.
Reshma Saujani:
We haven’t even started to peel back. And this learning loss thing really upsets me because we’ve seen it in Girls Who Code and it’s the thing that we should be knocking down the doors about and really, again, coming together as community. Also, teachers are burnt out, they’re exhausted, they’re tired, and parents are tired, and so we really got to kind of come together and say, what’s the solution here? What’s the metrics? What’s the goal? Our kids can’t be falling behind like this when it comes to math and science or reading or anything quite frankly.
Tim Allen:
Because it’s the kids who have to pay the price at the end of the day, and it’s untenable you’re hitting upon the net. I love my soap boxes and here I am again, but like the teaching shortage- right now we have people in the schools in Texas that are literally not teachers, but they have such a shortage that they’re giving them special one-year conditions to say, “Hey, you can come to be a teacher, not a full-time teacher or substitute teacher,” long term substitutes, is what they’re calling them, and that’s not tenable. The COVID gap year is not tenable. The lack of resources is untenable. So it’s not all doom and gloom, parents sitting out there. But what I will say is, to Reshma’s point, we are just peeling this back, and we are all feeling it, and as a community, we got to just be cognizant of that.
Reshma Saujani:
Yeah, we have to start paying attention.
Tim Allen:
How was your week? Now that I’ve taken this down that road.
Reshma Saujani:
My week was pretty shitty. I think a lot of parents right now. I got two kids with RSV, and so it’s this horrible cough, virus fever, all of it. And my seven-year-old is like a tank, so he never gets sick, but if he gets sick, I’m not too worried about him because he’ll recover. My baby, the two-year-old, he’s just fragile, and he’s got asthma. We’ve been in the emergency room too more times than I can count, needs to get the little…
Tim Allen:
The nebulizer.
Reshma Saujani:
The nebulizer and it’s really rough when you get a virus. So two weeks ago, Shaan gets the RSV, I’m just waiting for Sai to be out, and he’s in school, and he’s enjoying it. He’s just a little guy just trying to live, and then he just like on Friday, it just goes downhill, and you know what that means? That means coming in your bed crying, my tummy hurts going up and down the bottle, the rocking, so I’m sleeping, like every hour, every two hours.
My poor husband’s training for the marathon, and so it’s just so… It’s the volley. So we have like, all these events and stuff that we’re trying to do it all when we just should be sitting at home and doing nothing. And of course, the other day, two days ago, the kids are sick, I’m probably stressed with them being sick and trying to do my stuff, and I just start feeling hot, and I’m like let me take a cold shower. I’m starting to itch, and before I know it, my whole body is broken out in hives. And my husband’s having dinner down the street, and I’m like, “You got to come back. I’m dying.” I got two sick kids downstairs and the babysitter got to go home because she’s not feeling well. And so my husband comes in, and I’m upstairs in the bedroom trying to hide from the kid. So I don’t freak them out when they see me covered in like hives, and also feel like I’m about to die, and really want to go to hospital. But so my husband’s like sitting there, and God bless him, and he is like, he doesn’t have to do laundry for two weeks, that’s how high he is on my book today, right now.
But he kind of walks in and he’s like, I look crazy, and the kids are downstairs and he’s thinking like, ‘I can’t take her to the hospital. I don’t have childcare. I got these two kids, we’re going to be in the emergency room for three days. I got to get her to calm down.’ So he’s like, “What’s wrong? You’re fine. You just got a little bumps on your body, totally cool. Let me show you, let’s proxy Beyonce right now.” I’m like, “Beyonce is not what we should be putting on right now. I need to be listening to some birds chirping or maybe some ocean.” But he’s lying to me to basically calm me down.
Tim Allen:
Where he’s like, ‘Look over there!’
Reshma Saujani:
‘Look over there. Relax, just chill you’re good. Reshma, you’re overreacting, you’re fine.’ And of course, he’s trying to lock the kids out. So he’s like running a hospital, basically, between our two rooms. Of course, next, after four hours, I don’t feel like my body’s on fire. I should have gotten the hospital the next day. He’s like, “I was scared out of my mind. You needed to be in the emergency room. But I couldn’t take you and the kids there because everybody was sick.” And but it was such a classic thing about the child care crisis, about how at that moment, so many parents have to make those decisions as they’re sick, as their kids are sick, and their child care, the people who will take care of their babies are sick, too and you got to make these really, really, really tough choices and none of them are good. But everything worked out fine. I’m alive. My husband’s a hero and it’s good.
Tim Allen:
He is the hero of the story. I got to tell you, he’s alive.
Reshma Saujani:
He’s the hero
Tim Allen:
He is the hero; your husband comes to save the day. There’s such a lack of information. You’re like doing the best you can right at that moment. You’re like, why am I breaking out? Am I dying?
Reshma Saujani:
Am I dying? Did I eat something; I didn’t eat something what’s going on? Am I stressed? But don’t feel stressed. But this is the thing with parents too. Like I could tell you without looking dead in your face and be like I’m not stressed. I’m fine. But we don’t even know because it’s been such a crazy three years, I don’t even think we are at all plugged in with ourselves- I’m not- to know even what stress means, feels like, is, and so we’re all kind of lying to ourselves and just continuing to go with it and it’s going to catch up.
Tim Allen:
It’s a gradual erosion. We’re so used to stress being so reactive like this thing stressed me out, I’m so stressed, I’m so stressed. But it’s the gradual erosion where it’s been building underneath the surface of the stress that one day, you wake up in hives, and you’re like, am I dying? And by the way, I have to keep two little humans alive who are literally sick and it’s crazy.
Reshma Saujani:
Yeah, and of course, you bring out hives, because for a year, you haven’t slept, because you have, again, kids that you’ve raised in COVID, who have not built immunity, who have not gotten the support that they need, because they were masked up, right? Or school obviously had to be shut. So there’s all these compounded things that of course, our kids are not going to be totally fine. Totally at the same grade level, and it’s just, there’s no space for that, and we’re just kind of told, like, ‘Don’t look over there, keep moving. Keep going.’
Well, this is a great time to bring in our friend Blessing. We’re so so so so excited to have you with us today. Before blessing tells us a little bit about the research that she did with care.com, love to just again, want to shout out the fact that she’s built this incredible community, and she’s been helping working caregivers in their careers, and in their personal lives.
Blessing Adesiyan:
Thank you for having me. I’m excited
Tim Allen:
It’s so good to have you here. Thank you.
Reshma Saujani:
So great. So Mother Honestly, is a platform that’s reshaping the future of women and families at home. Prior to Mother, Honestly, Blessing spent 15 years Wow, in Fortune 100 companies. She’s always all over the news, from Fast Company to Wall Street Journal, to parents, she’s this highly sought-after speaker. She’s so inspiring. I can’t believe you studied chemical engineering, before getting a master’s in energy management and then getting an MBA. She’s a proud mom of white four kids, right?
Blessing Adesiyan:
Yes, I am.
Reshma Saujani:
Four little babies. It’s so great to have you there.
Blessing Adesiyan:
Thank you so much. I’m excited. Of course, Reshma you know, I’m a huge fan of yours, and Tim, I’ve been following your work since you took over at care.com and I literally was nodding yes to everything you both were saying about kids falling behind, because I have four, and I’m always like, if you’re worried about one, think about worrying about four at the same time, I’m like, who is behind? At a point I said, you know what, I’m actually exhausted trying to keep track of who is behind, we’re just going to read every night and just hope that covers everything, and so that’s sort of where I’m at. So thank you both for having me.
Tim Allen:
Thanks for being here. I really appreciate you having four. Wow, I have a hard time with two, and I’m just sitting here. By the way, I also kind of hope one drags the other along at all points in time. I’m like; I’m hoping my kids are kind of helping fill in my gaps a little bit. I totally get that saved but before we’re going read, someone’s going to pick it up, that’s it.
Blessing Adesiyan:
I have a 13-year-old, 13 and a half, and we’re going to get into this because I literally walked into the workplace pregnant and had a baby. So I had no experience being in the workplace without a pregnancy or a baby, so my almost 14-year-old actually reads to the kids to the little ones. So that at least helps out a little bit. We’re a family of four and we’re doing well, I feel like we’re running a camp. It almost feels like a camp here. So I call us the battalions, we’re the battalions and we just keep an assembly line for food, for reading, and then everything else. So, super excited; though I feel like that prepares me for everything that I do at Mother Honestly.
Tim Allen:
That’s incredible! Well, I know we did work together, and I really appreciated the surveys coming out soon, and it’s having been fortunate enough to get an early peek at some of the data. I’m really excited to talk to you about the information that we’re sharing here. The conversation about how parents are navigating work, and life, and what that means? It feels like whiplash a lot of the times because it’s also like you’re trying to juggle; are women in the workforce or are they not in the workforce?
Is this the impact here, is this impact there? Right, so doing the survey where we took over 1000 working caregivers and 500 senior executives. It was really great, the senior HR leaders, the people that I’ve had, it was great to get the information and really be able to put data to what Blessing you have been shouting from the rooftops multiple times over and really be able to talk about it and put it in a package that says, all right, here’s what are people actually saying, here’s the actual reality of what’s happening here. You see the report, and so I feel like the results are just really going to be interesting for this hour for us to talk about. And with that I feel like, let’s jump in, there’s so much to go into.
Reshma Saujani:
And you got a Munchkin behind your back.
Blessing Adesiyan:
He is the only boy and I tell you, boys just like attention.
Reshma Saujani:
Yeah, got we got two, I got two, we get it, and we know.
Blessing Adesiyan:
He is the only boy, and I’m like, ‘You’re the only child that wants to–‘ He wants to know what I’m doing. Mom are like, are they attending your event? I’m like, yes, they are. Yes, they are. So very, very grateful to have a caring little boy, I’m super excited about that. But Tim, you’re absolutely right, the survey and the report that is coming out. I particularly enjoyed what we did with care.com, and I was just very grateful for the experience because we learned a lot of things with this report. And I think that what we now know, is that caregivers in the workplace, have been through a lot. We’ve gone from crisis to crisis, whether it’s the child care crisis, senior care crisis, the formula shortages, or tampon shortages. I feel like there’s a lot of shortage, for things that are related to care. And of course, we saw what happened with Roe v Wade, with our reproductive rights yanked away from us. So caregivers have gone through a lot in the last 30 months, and these reports, as shown and proved to us that one, the workplace is changing, and it’s actually changing for the better for caregivers, and so we need to lean into that.
I can go into the numbers with you. But what we now know is that remote work works, and we also know that remote work is working for caregivers, but not only caregivers for everyone. Because I think that is where the future of work needs to include everyone, and what our data has shown at Mother Honestly and care.com is that if we really truly and want a future that works, it needs to work for everyone, and the data proves that.
We also found in the data that caregiving support is table stakes, it is so important for companies to lean into care. And one of the major reasons is that men are actually doing more now, I was literally smiling when you were talking about just how you are so involved in what your son is going through with math and trying to get the support that he needs. We’re seeing that across the board, that men are leaning into care, and they are leading with care at home and in the workplace. And so it is even more imperative that employers support everyone because it’s no longer a woman’s issue.
We also see from my report, that remote work is leveling the playing field between women and men, right? If men are doing more housework, and more childcare, it just only means that we are solving for time poverty that we see among women. So now women have more time to focus on their careers, and that supports closing the gender equity gap, that, quite frankly, is wild to me that it will take over 150 years to close that gap.
I feel that what this report is saying is we may actually be able to close that gap faster. And lastly, employers must get remote work right, and I think that remote work is not the answer for all of our problems in the workplace. But it is going to solve a lot of things, especially for caregivers, and if we truly want that future of work to work, then we need to get remote work right. So those are just a little bit highlights. I think, let’s just dive into it. Ask me all the questions. I’m so eager and so excited to answer them.
Reshma Saujani:
I love it. All right. I’m going to start out because I’m sorry, I have so many questions for you. First of all, tell me the first part is that everybody’s happier, and everybody is more productive. Tell me about that. Why?
Blessing Adesiyan:
So what we found is that everyone that’s caregivers and even managers, and I think that was what was truly eye-opening for us is that 76% of caregivers see that remote work is improving their quality of life. And what is even more exciting is that 77% of managers agree, because remember where we started from, when we said, ‘Okay, let’s go back home and flatten the curve.’ I don’t know if everyone remembers that.
Reshma Saujani:
Oh, how can we forget?
Blessing Adesiyan:
We’re going to come back into the office; and so many companies were really trying to bring us back into the office, managers were worried that people weren’t going to be as productive. That we would basically getting to a point where we’re having to chase employees down to get the work done. And now to actually see that over three-quarters of caregivers and managers actually agree that remote work is improving the quality of life for everyone, and that flexibility; it supports families, it supports women of color, it supports people of color, it supports LGBTQ friends, it supports everyone, and it’s elevating productivity in the workplace. I thought that was very powerful as a result of the report.
Reshma Saujani:
I thought it was also really– and this is what we found out our Marshall Plan report that we did as well, with APCO was that it was about giving people control. People just wanted a little bit of control over their schedule. It removed like if I want to take my kid to school, and I don’t have to be exactly sitting in my seat by 9:30, and the train is running late, and now I’m sweating, and I’m stressed out and trying to get there. It’s like giving people control, just like choke off this layer of stress, and allow people to do the things that they wanted or needed to do.
Blessing Adesiyan:
You’re absolutely right, Reshma, what we found was that people were saving time on communing, and so now they are spending more time with their kids 73% spending more time with their kids, another 71% are spending more time on their household responsibilities, more people are spending time with their partners and spouse, another 67% spending time on leisure activities because you have to remember where we started from the mental overload that literally crushed so many caregivers at home, while they were trying to all the way attempting to work and care for their kids and partners and community. And so now to now have more time to spend on leisure activities and RB and exercising that is one powerful thing that I actually gleaned out of this report because that gives me hope. What we saw was just this despair. Again, I started with all the crises that caregivers have been subjected to, and so to now see a gleam of hope and optimism that we can offer, especially in the face of everything else that is happening within the country. I think that was what really excited me about the report.
Tim Allen:
That’s fascinating. What do you think is holding back employers? There’s, I call a subset, a small group growing large pandemic really thrust them into having to figure out solutions of it. So it’s kind of like a means to an end in a lot of ways for some employers, some are just have always been proactive. I can think of many that have had been very proactive policies inside of this. Why do you think more employers are just like this? This is it. Productivity is an all-time high. Let’s do it. What do you think is on the sidelines of that? What does the data show in terms of that? Why are employers not just all running to the gate of this?
Blessing Adesiyan:
Absolutely. So what we found is that, first of all, 83% of employees with childcare responsibilities, said that they felt supported by the employer, and I thought that was very powerful. Because when the pandemic hit, and we all went into this remote work, we all came out including care.com saying, you have to increase your level of support for families, you have to increase Senior Care, you have to increase elder care, and housekeeping and various support for your employees.
What we found is that companies are listening, and companies are actually taking that proactive measure to support and to preempt for their career disruptions. And 75% of employees with senior responsibilities, said exactly the same thing that they felt their company’s level of support was strong. So I think what I gathered from this team is that we need to lean into this data and basically say, wow, we’ve been sort of beating employers up, right? You’re not doing much; you need to step up. You need to give your employees what they need, and what we’re seeing is that employers are actually stepping up.
But then we now are in a sort of a pivotal moment within our country because we have inflation, we have the rising cost of childcare, we have so many things, people are being squeezed and the demand for care is increasing, and then we have this childcare worker shortage. And so we need to lean into this data and simply as we see that you’re responding to this. So this is not a time to cut any type of care support for your employees, this is not the time to pull back on childcare, this is not the time to pull back on senior care. In fact, this is the time to actually lean into that, and support your employees so that they can wade through this inflation, this recession, and whatever is left of this pandemic, with confidence and resilience.
Reshma Saujani:
Yeah, it’s interesting, because I do, and I know Tim you feel this way, but in New York, it feels like employers are starting to push people back into the office.
Tim Allen:
Oh, yeah!
Reshma Saujani:
What was once a two-day or three-day is now becoming a four-day or a five-day. And this also back and forth is creating a lot of havoc for caregivers, because I made my plan when I thought I had to be in the office three days a week, and now you’re changing the rules on me, and now I feel like you’re always going to change. I think this report is so important because I think the data that your employees like you better when you provide these benefits, and they’ll stay longer.
I think it really stops the movement of really pulling back on this because you’ve seen again, report after report showing that employers are starting to pull back on this, and I don’t know Blessing what you think about this. But one of the things that’s interesting is I’ve talked to different CEOs is when they do survey their employees, and they say, what are the benefits that you want us to provide? Often, childcare is not on the top five, and the first thing women, in particular, say, ‘Oh, give me professional development,’ because we think that’s what we’re supposed to say. Rather than tell you what we actually need, and so there has to be this parallel movement.
I think that’s happening, what we’re doing at Marshall Plan for Moms, I know you’re doing Mother Honestly, is like giving women the permission to say, ‘No, ask for what you need. When you get that survey, put child care number one, and don’t output unless because you think that you don’t want your employer to judge you for it. Because I think employers are really paying attention or using survey results as a reason to cut these benefits.
Blessing Adesiyan:
I completely agree with you, I think that employers are starting to pull back on a lot of those resources. And I think a lot of it is because one, they want people back into the office, and two, a lot of the responses to childcare was as a result of the pandemic, and people generally feel like the pandemic is behind us, and so we can go back to the pre-pandemic way of doing things. And so that is why I’m excited about this report that is out there is for us to really prove to employers that it’s not enough. It’s not enough to lean into remote work, which a lot of you are doing, but what we need to do is actually get it right, because the data is showing that we all want remote work. I don’t know about you, but I’m not ready to start getting on the train, which I did when I was working for a Fortune 100 company, and I would spend at least three hours, between driving my car to the park and go getting on the bus. I had an episode where my entire breast milk spilled on me on the bus and that video actually went viral, and so no one wants to go back to that. We need to give our employees the choice to tell us what works best for them. A lot of people want remote work, and a lot of people want hybrid, and some people want to come back into the office. I think what this report is showing is that we need to give our employees more options, and the solution is not to enforce anything, because what we know is that people not only want flexibility with their work, they want flexibility with their time. Right. So that is what this data is showing us and so employers need to lean into that, in providing that flexibility across the board.
Tim Allen:
I got a question for both of you actually because I honestly don’t know. The advocation piece you just spoke about in regards to women advocating for what they need, what they actually need, versus what they believe they need. Is it that they don’t know what they don’t know in the workforce? Meaning that for so long society has been set up like childcare is your problem and you need to handle your family that the company is not responsible for ensuring and I love the term used earlier, ensuring your time poverty is not impacting your happiness. Is it just like there’s just a reframe that needs to happen for women to go, ‘Wait for me to be successful, for me to really win. I need childcare, and that’s not just a me problem. That’s an us problem company and mine.’
Reshma Saujani:
Yeah, I listen, I think it’s similar to, and Blessing, I don’t know if you had this experience, but when I was interviewing for jobs, I was kind of new or told or like implicitly to the girls, ‘Don’t ask about what their paid leave policy is. Or don’t ask about anything that might indicate that you’re interested in having a child.’ Because I remember, back in the day, they would straight up ask you, when are you planning on having kids? Because that was seen as a sign that you weren’t as committed to your job. So I think that that’s a spillover now, right? Where it’s like you’re not asking for those benefits, or what the status is of those benefits because you almost are still implicitly told to hide that identity of you being a mother.
What’s interesting, is IVF. Because as I write about in my book Pay Up, five years ago, like 0%, of companies offered IVF, and now everybody does because women, men, everyone came into the interview and said, ‘What’s your fertility benefits?’
Fertility and prolonging fertility was seen as a sign that you were actually a worker, that you actually were committed to your job because you were going to prolong having a baby so that you could actually stay in the workforce for as long as you possibly can. Childcare paid leave are the opposite, and so I think that that’s what’s really going on is this implicit fear that if I signaled that I’m interested in that, you’re suddenly not going to give me that promotion, not going to give me that opportunity, not invite me to that thing, and that is what we have to basically shift.
Blessing Adesiyan:
Absolutely. I agree with you. I remember my last job, when I interviewed there, I was six months pregnant. So y’all need to see me. So I wore this huge jacket, because I’m like, I don’t like this bump, you better stay flat through this interview. And I walked in, and of course, it was five white men. And so you can just imagine the trepidation that was oozing out of me. But you know, I eventually got that job. My husband keeps saying, ‘You just walk into everything, and you just grabbed it up.’ I got the job, and I will never forget when I showed up. And of course, by the time I started, because you have to go through all the background checks, and all of that medical, and I showed up, and of course, now I’m seven months, and it was very clear that I was pregnant. And I will never forget, my manager at the time said, “Whoa, I did not know you were pregnant, if I knew we wouldn’t be hiring you because we literally have something that is a project that you’re supposed to work on that is literally due while you’re on maternity leave.”
And so that was just a very horrible experience for me because I ended up coming back from maternity leave, or parental leave, which I love to call it now. Because paid leave or having a child, it’s not a woman’s issue. So when I came back from parental leave, it was very clear that I needed to compensate the company, and that was the language for giving me that generous four months’ leave. And so Reshma, you’re absolutely right when you say that, women don’t feel safe, we just don’t feel psychologically safe to voice our opinion, our true opinion on what we think we need. So even though we know like when we survey women at Mother Honestly, separately and quietly, they tell us we want childcare, we want housekeeping. Nobody ever goes to their manager and say we need help with housekeeping. But I can guarantee you that when companies actually provide housekeeping benefits…
Reshma Saujani:
I love this; we should go fish for that now, I like that. It’s a good one.
Blessing Adesiyan:
When companies provide housekeeping benefits, productivity will actually go up because can you imagine staring at a pile of laundry and your daily house while you’re trying to actually get work done? That gives me heart palpitations. Okay, and if I know that that is taken care of, I can literally get through my work in a much more streamlined manner. So a lot of time when we survey women privately they tell us we need housekeeping. We need childcare, we need support with tutoring, we don’t understand second-grade math. And so these are the issues but then when they come to the workplace setting, they’re like, you know what, I actually just need career advancement, and I need mentorship.
Reshma Saujani:
Yes, because if that’s the answer you think you’re supposed to give, and to your point Blessing, you reminded me again of something that Betsey Stevenson said. What did she say, Tim, like, the average person works 61 years and you’re talking about a four-month break out of your entire work. So the way that employers should be seeing it is, great, I hire you at seven months, you’re going to leave in two months for three months, but then I got you for 20 years, and so great, just go in and take the time that you need because the trajectory that I want you here is going to be very long, and they don’t see it that way. And so we’re constantly felt like I pulled something on you, and I tricked you.
Tim Allen:
It’s four months to create a human. You don’t say that you have many more months to create the human but to have… [Crosstalk]
Reshma Saujani:
Or like going to Hawaii.
Tim Allen:
Exactly right. It’s four months, 61 years, I’ve had a human being, so that’s just the irony of this situation, which is, it’s not, it’s not ironic, in a funny way. It’s ironic in a very sad way that we, as a society, kind of like both of you have had these experiences going through your career development. Because you look, I do sit in the seat of privilege in this conversation at all times. I’m a guy like, I don’t have that, people are looking in there. When people talk about my family, they’re like, ‘Oh, you got kids way to go.’ It’s not like, ‘Oh, you’ve got kids. Don’t talk about your children… [Crosstalk]
Reshma Saujani:
Don’t give Tim the CEO position.
Tim Allen:
Yeah, exactly. That is the reason we’re in this situation but it’s never like that.
Blessing Adesiyan:
And Tim, I think this is where the conversation about paid leave, or parental leave and making that equal is so important, right? Because, when we look at parental leave across companies, and we see, oh, we’re only going to give men two weeks or four weeks, and women, yeah we’re doing it well, you have 16 weeks? Well, what we’re communicating is that this new baby is a woman’s issue that it’s not a man’s issue, and so we literally start the beginnings of a child’s life, communicating to the child very clearly, that your mom is responsible for you.
so if we really want to level the playing field properly, and really make this all of our issue, then we need to start with looking at our policies, and de-gendering them, because we want to make it clear that this company is leading with care. And what that means is a woman that care for you, whether you or your child or your relatives, whether you’re a man or a woman, it doesn’t matter, because what matters to us is that every employee gets the support that they need to do their best to work and live their best life.
Tim Allen:
Yeah, it relates to the data, you just dropped the knowledge bomb on us earlier about how the housekeeping benefit tends to really support getting productivity up. You could say there across the gamut, whether it’s professional house cleaner, or whether it’s a spouse or a partner, or someone else who’s able to actually pitch in and support, it opens up the mental cognizance of that person, the other individuals who participate in the family to really be able to participate fully in the activities that they’re participating, whether that’s work, whether that’s life, whether that whatever that is. And employers really do get that benefit to data shows.
The surveys that both, Marshall Plan for Moms and Mother Honestly and Care have put together show that productivity really can continue to improve. And I think the thing that actually we’re going with this is what scares me is in this economic time, as we start to talk about inflation, as we start to talk about pulling back, I’m hearing more of that drum beat Reshma that you talked about of get back to the office. Oh, I’ve even heard on a zoom call the other day, and I actually had to correct someone, they said, we were trying to find someone quickly to have a quick zoom to get everything together, and one of the individuals was not readily available. And I had someone say to me, ‘Well, you know, they’re not at their desk, they’re not being productive.’ But this narrative started to come back in, which kind of reverts backwards to where I feel like we have been.
Reshma Saujani:
And it’s so not true. The Fed did a survey and study that the product, there would be no productivity gains when you let people remote remotely. So this is an interesting situation where we’re not actually following the data. And so there’s something else, that is behind this need. In New York, we say it’s all about real estate, real estate lobby that’s putting this pressure on. But I mean, to your point, too, I think in this survey, right, it shows that remote work has leveled the playing field between men and women, which I found very interesting. Love for you to talk more about that Blessing.
Blessing Adesiyan:
Absolutely. So 77% of employees said remote work is good for career advancement across gender lines, and I think we all know exactly why. If we’re all working from home, now suddenly, there’s a level playing field, we’re all projecting projects on zoom. Tim is not hanging out with his boys afterward to grab a glass of wine and fight for that promotion. And so we’re seeing more and more equal opportunities as a result of remote work, and what the data is showing that everybody actually really love it. We love that, gender lines are starting to disappear as a result of remote work and so Reshma, to your question about what is there? Why do we need to come back into the office, if we see the remote work is working, and we all actually love it? And I think it’s control, it’s employers want control, it’s you want to see that your investment is actually paying off, that people are actually working, typing away, sitting at their desk, and it makes you feel good, right? It just makes you feel good as a manager or as a CEO to walk in and see that people are actually working.
I think what this data will show to everyone that has a chance to read it is that instead of us leading with fear, instead of us leading with are people actually going to work in a recession or in an environment where we all really need to be doubling down? Why don’t we lead to care, right? Because we’ve seen that there are other ways to achieve higher productivity, we’ve seen that if we can just give people more support on the homefront, if we can just let people have more flex, more control over their time, more flexibility, that we can actually increase our productivity, we’ve demonstrated that already. And so I think that this is a call to action for employers that instead of leading with fear, instead of leading with, oh you need to come back because we need to see you, we need to lead with care.
So what I have started seeing is that and I’ve coined the word, I don’t know if it have been used before, what life care, because I feel like this is a time for us to remind employers that there’s actually a duty of care to employees that we’ve not really talked about much because our country has been so focused on the q3 results and capitalism and all this fancy stuff. And so we haven’t exactly leaned into that duty of care that is expected from an employer, and we saw what happened. As a result, when the pandemic hit, there was zero safety net, even the employers that were benefiting from all the hours of work could not save the employees, and so this is a reminder that look, we have to get this right. This time we understand as an inflation is recession is all of these things. But we need to remember that when we don’t lead with care, we run into real issues in the workplace.
Tim Allen:
I agree with that. So I completely- Blessing you and I are very much on the same page. A lot of times, especially with the data, right? I believe that shared responsibility, here’s where it gets dicey as an employer, for me, I’d love to hear your perspective on that Blessing. It is when you look at the disruption of accountability and responsibility because I shouldn’t be saying it’s a negative. It’s just redrawn lines of who the players are accountable for X employees are accountable for Y, what’s the accountability lines?
Two factors always come up for me in the various debates I have regarding working from home. And it is how do you and I get– Sorry, I just want also caveat a minute before I get into it, which is I understand there’s a responsibility on the employer to figure this out, too. But how do you one mentor employees in a remotive, like the structures for mentorship have been for so long an in person, like catch corrective action kind of structure of when you have relatively young employees starting out, you really want to just correct them. Of course, if you’re sitting on Zoom, you only get to do it in the very structured box, right? So it’s like, you lose that magic in some ways. And it famously, I have executives inside of the organization, say to me all the time, how do you capture innovation in a remote environment as well? So it’s a little bit like, how do employees take responsibility for that piece of it? And how do employers take responsibility for that? And how do you make this tenable because I think that that’s part of it, also, which is I do the controls and aspect of it. But I also just wonder, how does that?
Blessing Adesiyan:
I completely agree with you and I completely agree with you Tim and I’ve always said Work Life Care is both ways. It has to be both ways. We can’t expect employers to put their best foot forward and employees not putting their best foot forward. So I think we need to be clear on that, and that is why when our data said we need to get remote, those are some of the aspects that I think we all need to think about. because what happens when we say that we want to get remote work right, it means that there’s a responsibility on the employer side, and also responsibility on the employees’ side.
So that is one and when we talk about mentorship, and we talk about flexibility and remote work, we have to always remember that we’re not asking for people to permanently never leave their house, right? So there’s so many ways that we can get remote work right. And it doesn’t mean that employees don’t come to the office, it doesn’t mean that employees are only on Zoom 24/7. It just means that everyone has flexibility, and we can all agree.
So Tim, if you and I agree that you know what Blessing, especially with how you’re working, right now you’re in Nigeria, I’m here in Austin, we’re going to work remotely, for XY and Z days, and maybe on some days, you and I are going to meet up when we go to the Mother Honestly, Summit, we’re going to take that one week and walk on some really key issues for 2023, we’re going to start planning that. There are so many ways that we can be flexible with how we work that doesn’t require that an employer has total control, or an employee has total control. Reshma, I see you itching to talk so say something?
Reshma Saujani:
No, I just I could not agree more. I just think about for me, I have spent a lot of my time when I was CEO of Girls Who Code, and now CEO of Marshall Plan for Moms managing remotely, I love to talk on the phone, I love to call you. I’m speaking at something, I’ll fly somebody out, or I really engaged in like quarterly staff retreats that we get a lot done.
So I think this point that everyday mentorship happens, that’s how mentorship happens, and I think that for me, somebody could just as much learn from me, by listening to me on a call where I’m pitching something or watch me on a zoom, again because those interactions aren’t happening every single day. So I feel like that is a little bit of a cop-out this whole idea of like, let me pull you over and watch you sit in the meeting and watch me. I just don’t know how different the in-person interaction is different than watching me pitch an investor on a zoom call. I just don’t think that there’s such a big difference that we have to do that.
Now, and I think the innovation piece is the same. I think that innovation doesn’t happen every single day. Innovation happens in moments, and you can have a week or three days once a month, where you pull people together, and you basically do a session on something that you’re trying to bang out. We just had a Marshall Plan for Moms, staff retreat, and it was probably like maybe 30 hours, and we just crushed it, and everybody was like, boom! But we didn’t need more than that. We didn’t need more than dinner at night, and then nine to four, and we that’s what we needed.
But the thing is that that takes discipline, and I think people are lazy.
Tim Allen:
That’s right.
Reshma Saujani:
I think people are lazy, and the thing is moms aren’t lazy. We are highly disciplined, and we have learned a long time ago like I don’t need 10 hours. I need one, and I can bring it. So to me, this way of working, I think is going to create more innovation, more productivity, and I think that’s what the data shows.
Tim Allen:
Yeah. I’m sorry, I was going to say that’s exactly where my head goes, when I have the conversations with various executives is it’s lazy, but it’s also the lack of intentionality. People have to be intentional because there was so much time wasted in the office for parents alone. And parents, as you just said, don’t got the time. I don’t want to be hanging out in the cafeteria hearing about how your cat just had an allergic reaction, like, I love you but kids got to get picked up, I need to go get this project done. I feel like what happens in an executive ranking, and I can’t speak for all executives. I’m talking about just there are some hallways, this conversation happens. It really is you got to be structured, you got to be intentional, you’ve got to not be lazy. You got to do the work in order to command someone’s time and actually build what you’re going for.
Reshma Saujani:
Tim listen, I think the most, and Blessing I know you love the data enough and short, but one of the most interesting things I just came off of, contrary most powerful women and literally got to a debate, a heated sometimes debate with a lot of female CEOs that really disagreed with what we’re talking about, that really believed that not having women in the office, not having FaceTime, was going to be detrimental to equality. And I’ve been really thinking about, I think part of it is because that’s how they think they got in the C suite; was that somebody saw them pulled them over, they showed up at every happy hour.
They were there, and so that’s the way that we have to do it. And what I was really pushing back on was like, well, why can’t you imagine something different? Why can’t we imagine something different and make it happen? Because as a CEO, you could redesign hybrid work, you could bring in a new technology tool that makes people be in the room, you could redesign performance reviews. Again, structure work so that it works for women.
And again, I think it’s this fear of like, well, I did it this way. So this is the only way that it can be done. That mindset is almost like the hazing mindset, is what has kept women back for so long and that unable to sit and say, wow, I went through that, that was really hard and painful. It cost me my marriage, it costs me, my kids, it costs me my kidney because it did, for most of these women, and we don’t have to do it that way for the next generation. And so let’s think about something different, let’s invent something new,
Tim Allen:
Your experiences are our reality. Everything is put through the lens of your experiences. So 100%, sorry about that. I definitely want to hear Blessing’s views.
Blessing Adesiyan:
Absolutely, I feel like Reshma, you’re spot on because our data shows exactly the same thing. Managers must create systems that ensure that the downsides of working from home are mitigated, and the benefits of being in office are replicated in a virtual format. And it’s exactly what you said, Reshma, we need to put in the work so if there’s any message out of this podcast, it is that we need to put in the work to redesign a workplace, that works for everyone, works for parents, works for caregivers, works for various people of various backgrounds, works for historically excluded communities. And Reshma this takes me back to one of the articles of yours that I read on time.com about the people that really want to come back into the office, we have to remember that the people that are actually really excited about working remotely, are people of color, or people that have been historically excluded because they somehow feel more safer outside of the office. We just talked about the idea that I had to literally jump into three winter coats to hide my pregnancy can you imagine that? And so how do we level the playing field? Whether it’s temporary, I always believe everything is temporary. Okay, I don’t believe that anything is set in stone, I don’t even believe that remote work is set in stone. I think that we need to just get into this mindset of continually evolving, to be more inclusive, to improve belonging for everyone, and so we have to put in the work to do whatever it takes. And that laziness in corporate America is exactly why we’re seeing a lot of people asking for everyone to come back into the office, even when the data clearly shows that remote work works. It makes us happier, we’re spending more time with our kids, men are doing more in supporting their partners and being a part of their family. I feel like that is a great theme for us, that’s something that we should all be celebrating that finally we’re bringing humanity into work and is something that we should be celebrating and we’re not doing that instead going to exact time reverse. No, we got to go back into the office. No, no, no, no, we’re not doing that again.
Reshma Saujani:
Yep, and you know what’s so wild, as you’ve been talking, and I’ve been thinking about this report is like, it’s so interesting to me about how this is, again, another situation where the data is very clear, and sound, and it’s not even like by a Marshall Plan for Mom. The Fed did an entire study completely unattached, right to any outcome, saying this, but yet some of the smartest CEOs in the world are selling a different story. And the thing that this reminds me of is diversity. Right? The data had been done on diversity, that diversity is important 50 years ago, showing that when you bring diverse teams together, you get better economic outcomes. But Blessing, how many times would you’ve had talked on this topic? Have you been asked, well, do you have studied on that? What’s the data say? Do you have a report? And again, it’s this Jedi mind trick, trying to make people feel that like why should I show evidence on this, and this is exactly what’s going to happen on hybrid work. If we don’t keep doing reports keep showing the data, keep when we get challenged, push over the Fed report, push over the Mother Honestly, and care.com report and say, we will explain this, then refute this then, because it’s all been fake news. And so it’s just really, really, really to me, again, shocking, or it shouldn’t be shocking, actually. Now I feel naive every time, I’m shocked by these things that like, the data is really clear. So we shouldn’t be arguing about this.
Blessing Adesiyan:
I think we’re all feeling there’s that squeeze, we will find this out in the report as well. Everybody’s feeling, when companies are saying come back into the office, suddenly, you’re like, whoa, it means I’m doing something wrong, and we saw that in the report, what we also found was that there’s some fear, around remote work, there’s some sort of trepidation, because 50% of women said, whoa, we feel that remote work would limit our career advancement. And 64% of men also agree, and I think it’s because we constantly are sending this message that if you’re not in the office, it’s like this proximity bias thing that we’ve been talking about lately. If you’re not impressing, and you’re not the favorite employee, and you’re not the one who is talking over everyone in meetings, and everyone can see you do that, then your career will not advance. It’s like, we’re trying to like match this old reality with things that needs to be dynamic and changing in the current reality. And so we are all now in limbo, I feel like we’re all in limbo, we don’t know what’s going on, and that is why I’m super excited about this report. Because I feel like this report finally tells us what we already know. We already know that remote work is here to stay and that if companies really and truly want the best out of their employees. If we’re really serious about productivity, if it’s not just all talk, then we move the ring when it comes to remote work or flexibility for employees.
Reshma Saujani:
Thank you Blessing. Go ahead, Tim.
Tim Allen:
I was going to say one of the things which is, here’s the pro tip, I’m taking away from this. We got the data, we now continue to double down on the data, we continue to be able to say this study, this study, this study, right? Here’s the pro tip for you parents out there, here’s the pro tip for you CEOs out there, or leaders or managers, or I don’t care who you are, here’s the pro tip party, you take the data to your leader, and you go, you want to make more money, you want to be more productive, you want to beat the competition, you want to have that edge; this is how you do it, and let’s put the structures in place. So we are addressing your concerns about innovation, addressing your concerns about productivity, addressing your concerns about mentorship, let’s figure those structures out. Because if we get this right, our company will skyrocket, and that to me is going to be the killer. Like that, to me is the graph that we want.
Reshma Saujani:
We got to be rich, and that will be it.
Tim Allen:
Because that’s what in companies. That’s it.
Reshma Saujani:
That’s it! All right. Pro tip done. Mic drop, I like that. But you are exactly right. We have to end it and camp it. This isn’t fair. And the parents are getting screwed.
Tim Allen:
Here’s the data.
Reshma Saujani:
Here’s the data and that’s it. Well, Blessing, thank you so much. This was like I think maybe our favorite conversation. Maybe I shouldn’t say that, because of obvious reasons.
Tim Allen:
We’ve had incredible ones. This one was also incredible. I got to tell you, this one was awesome. It was one of our favorites,
Reshma Saujani:
Much more diplomatic. Tim, thank you. But thank you blessing for being on, and thank you for this report, and thank you for everything that you do in the world to make it a better place. I’m forever part of your sisterhood and a big champion and a big supporter of what you’re doing and just grateful for you.
Blessing Adesiyan:
Thank you so much, Reshma.
Tim Allen:
I’m not sure how but thank you. I appreciate it. I’m in the brotherhood.
Blessing Adesiyan:
Yeah, you’re like our big brother.
Reshma Saujani:
Bros can be in sisterhood, too.
Tim Allen:
I’ll take it, I’ll take whatever it is. I want in this, don’t get me wrong.
Reshma Saujani:
You definitely want to be in.
Blessing Adesiyan:
Thank you so much. It was just a great opportunity to work with care.com on this, and I think it just goes to prove that we need to lean into that care. One that of course care.com provides but also I feel like what we need to be pushing now as the final pro tip is how do we build this caring workplaces that is not focused on control and fear and all of this data that, we’re not even using, but that is more focused on literally let’s just focus on care. Like if we focus on care, we would have solved for a lot of things, and we won’t have to sit around talking about how do we make money? How do we increase productivity, because we’ve solved for all the big things that our employees worry about. We’ve solved for it with care. So thank you for having me and enjoying the rest of the podcasting.
Reshma Saujani:
Thank you, Blessing, see you soon.
Reshma Saujani:
Okay, so that was some amazing episodes. So much I learned. What did, I mean, where did we start? Do we start with Betsey Stevenson? Like,
Tim Allen:
Yeah, I think we start with Betsey. I feel like I’m on, did you ever ride that Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride Over Disney when you ever been there on that one?
Reshma Saujani:
No I haven’t been on that one.
Tim Allen:
So the whole theme is like you just ride on that one crazy, crazy like rollercoaster ride. That is what I feel like we’ve gone through, through all of the various places of care. I think, yeah, let’s start with like Betsey, Betsey. So much to so much.
Reshma Saujani:
So much, right? I mean, I feel like this whole episode just made me a lot smarter and like there are things that like have been said that I have like used in speeches and talks like Betsey I mean, the point about like the United States was the first country to offer public school education and that people were so upset about that and that essentially it was the best thing that we did for our economy in that like we could fill an entire library of commerce with data. Going back to the data that like early education’s important, but yet we still. Don’t do what we know we need to do for the economy. Just blew me away.
Tim Allen:
Yeah. I also found, Betsey educated me on a social aspect of it that I hadn’t really put into my head concretely, which is, as parents, we are Mama and Papa Bears, like we fight and advocate for our children on an individualistic level, but it’s really frays, when we start to kind of come together as a parental community to advocate for rights, like we lose something in the voice as it bubbles up, because we know how to advocate for ourselves and our family and our needs. But how do we get it to the collective? How do we, because that’s where the change starts to happen. That’s where the magic is gonna come.
Reshma Saujani:
And that’s where I thought the pollsters were really interesting because for me it was like, these are really bipartisan, these are apolitical issues. And I feel like, again, because we’re in the middle of these culture wars, we politicize them. Yeah. When they’re not political, like, and there’s really not a lot of disagreement. No. Um, I don’t think anyone read. You know that article about the math scores and said, ah, forget about it. We don’t need to do anything about that.
Absolutely. I mean, I think every parent read that and was like, “oh my God. Like we need to do something”. I think every mother, I mean, every room I’m in, I’m like, who went to, who went to work before they were ready? Every hand raised. And so many women look at that moment as the moment that shifted everything for them professionally. And if they had more time, things could have been different. So it’s like there’s so much consensus and I think we need more movements. We’re trying to do that at MPM about that, that are talking about this in an apolitical way so people can kind of come together. And we need to look for ways to have, have people come together.
Tim Allen:
Yeah. Uh, it’s, it’s not a topic that needs to be divisive. It’s not a topic that needs to get into tribalism. Right. It is very much a topic of. What’s best for our kids? And universally, you said it universally, everyone wants what’s best for the kids. Like no one’s gonna stand in there and be like, Nope, don’t want my kids to succeed in math.
Right? Like it’s no matter where you are on the spectrum, you care about kids. The problem ends up being who pays for it. Is it tax cuts? Is it something that ends up being where we need to fund it through a public, public service? Like no one has the answer and that’s the problem. Like everyone has ideas on both sides and there’s so many other pressing issues now facing in terms of, of what the party system seems to think there are though you and I, I think I, I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, know that this is the one that could solve a lot of those issues if given the right structure and support. How do we pay for it? How do we really put dollars to work? And that’s gonna be the real thing that I think the government’s gonna have to deal with, the government and businesses and individuals are gonna do.
Reshma Saujani:
And the businesses are gonna have to deal with it. And I think we talked to some amazing business leaders like Carol Jule about, about that and about what the powers that the private sector, okay. So can I tell you what the most depressing thing was though for me on this podcast? Was when Claire. Claire Cain Miller basically made this, and I keep, I can talk about this. It’s like when I asked her like, “do you think we’ll ever shift the ratio of domestic work?”
And she used the example of, you know, same sex couples and relationships and about how the problem is really about American culture and how we work. And in same sex couples, right, you have, you basically do the negotiation. Who’s gonna be flexible, who’s gonna hustle all day, all night. And the default is always in heteronormative, relationships, moms. And so until we change work and until we change culture, I don’t know if anything’s gonna change. That depressed me.
Tim Allen:
You know, it’s true. It is a depressing and it, it, you kind of brought me down, which is why that sigh came in cause I was riding, I was riding on a high and then I was like, wow, she’s absolutely all things you say.
Reshma Saujani:
Sorry, I tend to do that.
Tim Allen:
You say it many times. You know, you, you do this many times in my life where I feel like I get smacked with a, with a Reshism. Uh, I’m like, oh, that’s brilliant insight. I am now. I hadn’t thought of it that way. It’s just true. It is. It, it, it, it is a societal change. It is a societal shift, and I think what, in that moment, what I had come to grips with, reflecting back on it was, I don’t know if it’s gonna happen in my generation. Like I don’t know if it’s gonna happen in my lifetime, but I really hope that we can lay the rocks and the pebbles and the stones for the path to be there for future generations, because it’s what it’s all about, right? I want my kids to not inherit the bad aspects of society that we have today. Or perceive bad aspects, whatever that may be for you.
Um, and I really want them to succeed. So I really hope we can be agents of change. And it’s not, I sound so defeatist. I sound like I’m giving up right? But I’m not giving up. Like I think that there’s a lot of movement to be made there. But I do think it’s a wholesale change. I think it’s a wholesale change. I think you’re right.
Reshma Saujani:
It’s very hopeful. Tim, you always make me feel very hopeful after I spend time with you. It’s just No, and I think that, you know, cuz we have very, we. . Um, I think as this podcast shows very different lives, very different parenting selves, but very same. You know, we are probably two very, you know, you look at us and we’re like, couldn’t get any more different.
Tim Allen:
Yeah.
Reshma Saujani:
But it’s also very similar in our values and how we love our children and how we love what we do and like what we want, uh, not just for ourselves and our own families, but you know, for everybody. And so, I do think we have to dream big. Yeah. And I do think we, I think hopefully, I think in this podcast we got at the heart of so many different questions and things we need to grapple with and things we need to consider. So. It’s been a wonderful ride.
Tim Allen:
I have loved every minute of it. You know, you had me think of something where every year I read this perennial article called “What Will I Do With My Life by Clay Christensen?” I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it. It’s fantastic and I highly recommend it for anyone. And he makes this observation that he says, you know, he went to his 50 year, uh, MBA reunion and he looked around the room and there’s Titans of Titans.
He went, he went to one of the IVs and it’s the Titans of Titans inside of there. And he looked around the room and he was like, and I could call out. That one had a divorce. That one’s kids don’t talk to ’em. That one is miserable. That one, and, and raising children. We’ve been so conditionalized in America that, that we want immediate feedback loops. So work is all about an immediate feedback loop. You wanna have that feedback loop. You want to like, am I doing it? Am I getting the gold star? Is this successful? Is this working? And children are the longest term, 18 year, if not more investment you’re gonna make, with no immediate feedback loop.
And so what he said is, is he looked around the room at his reunion and he said, “I’m so glad I prioritized my family and my life.” Because that, looking back, I have a wife who loves me. I have kids who I have a deep, rich connection with. And he goes, “and I didn’t make the short term trade for the things in life that like would give me the immediate feedback loop.
I keep making the long term investment, though there is no clear path for a payback.” And, uh, you know, this podcast has just really reminded me of that because, You know, Reshma, you inspire me in many, many ways and I really appreciate you. But parents out there also do, and I really hope parents can be looking at their children and knowing that it is the long term that we’re fighting for here.
It’s the long term investment of a better life for them and a better life for yourself. Parents deserve a better life, so thank you for honoring me and letting me have room in your space.
Reshma Saujani:
Thank you. That was so powerful and so beautiful and such a beautiful way to, I think, end this podcast and I know it’s just the beginning of our journey together.
Tim Allen:
Definitely.
Reshma Saujani:
We may see you on the road somewhere.
Tim: Definitely. We will.
Reshma Saujani:
As we go on to our, 50 city tour.
Tim Allen:
50 City tour.
Reshma Saujani:
50 City Tour. We’ll bring our kids with us. That’ll be fun.
Tim Allen:
I don’t think you’re ready for that one.
Reshma Saujani:
You really wanna see something. Exactly.
Tim Allen:
They’re gonna love each other.
Reshma Saujani:
Well, thank you. Thanks everyone.
Tim Allen:
Thank you.
Reshma Saujani:
Why care? Because you should!
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